Is it possible to bake 100% rye bread in 30h from scratch?
Is it possible to get rye sourdough just in 24h?
- Yes it is, just watch the video and read following explanation.
Understanding concentrated lactic acid sourdough (CLAS)
Besides traditional sourdough which contains lactic acid bacteria and yeast, small bakeries in Russia use non-traditional, concentrated lactic acid sourdough (CLAS), that contains only lactic acid bacteria.This sourdough has following characteristics:
- Hydration 190%
- pH 3,6-3,8 (18-22 °S)
- Fermentation temperature 40°C±2°C
- Lack of yeast
Usually CLAS (Russian KMKZ) is started with lactic acid bacteria only and due to the fermentation temperature of 40°C, yeast have no chance to develop in this kind of sourdough. In absence of yeast, lactic acid bacteria is able to produce more acid and sourdough becomes more sour comparing to the traditional ones. This fact is very positive for the self preservation, CLAS can stay at room temperature for 24-48h without losing its properties. During this time CLAS can be used for baking bread, what is very important for small bakeries.
What is good for small bakeries turned out to be VERY GOOD for hobby bakers.
Me and a lot of Russian hobby bakers have used CLAS for a long time already and it is time to share this technology with other world.
How to gain CLAS at home conditions without having access to the “clean” lactic acid bacteria strains? On practice it is much easier as you can think.
General Formula to get CLAS in one step, within only 24 hours:
Rye or any other malt: 25g
Whole grain rye flour: 75g
Water T. 45°C: 180 ml
Vinegar (5%): 10 ml
Fermentation temperature: 40°C±2°C
Fermentation time: 24-36h
Hydration: 190%
End pH: around 4
Malt and whole grain flour contain a lot of micro-flora. Fermentation temperature about 40°C prevents growth of yeast. Adding a little amount of vinegar prevents mold growth in the sourdough. At the same time vinegar set up an initial pH of the medium. You need to cover sourdough surface with a food film to prevent contact with air (anaerobic conditions).
All this factors help to create favorable environment for lactic acid bacteria development.
After 15 hours of fermentation it makes sense to stir the sourdough to help bacteria to develop. Usually after 24h the sourdough will get pH around 4 and will have sour-sweet taste with lactic acid flavor.
If not, maybe you need to wait a little more. Probability of success is 99%.
If mixture has bitter taste or unpleasant flavor, throw it away and try out another flour, another malt or add a little more vinegar.
Where to get malt? Actually, in the home-brew shops. Buy the grain malt, you can crack it yourself. What to do if you cannot find malt? Than try to use only whole grain rye flour.
General Formula to get CLAS without malt in one step, within only 24-30 hours:
This method shown in this video:
Whole grain rye flour: 100g
Water T. 45°C: 180 ml
Vinegar (5%): 10 ml
Fermentation temperature: 40°C±2°C
Fermentation time: 24-36h
Hydration: 190%
End pH: around 4
It works as well, but probability is around 70-80%. In the US take pumpernickel flour for sure.
 |
| concentrated lactic acid sourdough (CLAS) after 24h |
If you want to bake rye bread from 1kg flour, right after first step, you may need to prepare a litle bit more of CLAS:
Rye or any other malt: 30g
Whole grain rye flour: 90g
Water T. 45°C: 216 ml
Vinegar (5%): 12 ml
Fermentation temperature: 40°C±2°C
Fermentation time: 24-36h
Hydration: 190%
Total: 348g
Now we can bake bread or we can do one more refreshment to be sure, or perform both steps in parallel as I did in the video.
Usually CLAS will be refreshed 1:9 for 12h at 40°C±2°C. For second stage you do not need malt and vinegar any more. Also you do not need to protect its surface by putting food film on top.
CLAS 33g
Water T. 45°C: 190 ml
Whole grain rye flour: 100g
Fermentation temperature: 40°C±2°C
Fermentation time: 12h
Hydration: 190%
End pH: 3.6-3.8
After first refreshment pH drops to 3.6-3.8 and we will get what is in Russia called concentrated lactic acid sourdough (CLAS).
How to measure pH of sourdough or dough:
- Take as much of sourdough, that it contains 5g of flour. For CLAS it is 14.5g
- Add distilled water 100ml
- Stir
- Wait 25-20 minutes
- Stir again
- Measure pH
 |
| pH after 1st refreshment |
But even first CLAS can be used for baking rye bread, since pH 4 is completely sufficient for that. That is why you will be able to finalize your first rye bread just within 30h from the starting point!
Watch the video:
Preservation and refreshment
CLAS can stay in a fridge for 7-14 days and should be periodically refreshed like traditional sourdough.CLAS requires only one refreshment step, but the temperature should always be 40°C±2°C:
CLAS (from fridge T. +4°C) 33g
Water T. 50°C: 190 ml
Whole grain rye flour: 100g
Fermentation temperature: 40°C±2°C
Fermentation time: 12h
Hydration: 190%
For refreshment you do not need food film any more. After CLAS is refreshed, it can be used for pre-dough or dough or can be placed into fridge. It can even stay at room temperature for 24h, if you are not going to bake right away.
CLAS convinces not only with rapid producing technology, but also with very pleasant taste and flavor of the baked breads.
How to bake with CLAS?
There are guidelines for bakeries, that have been proved by me and many other Russian hobby bakers since couple of years already. But, first of all, you should not forget, that CLAS is yeast-less, that is why baker yeast should be added (fresh or dry) to the pre-dough or to dough to be able to bake.Baking Guidelines
Rye bread, containing 80-100% of rye flour
These breads should be baked using refreshed CLAS, not CLAS from fridge.Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) => pre-dough => dough
Recipe for 1k of flour:
Pre-dough
CLAS: 290g (100g flour, 190ml water)
Water: 420ml T 33-35°C
Rye flour: 500g
Yeast: 6g fresh or 2g dry
Fermentation time:3h
Fermentation temperature:29°C
Dough
Water: 50-80ml
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 400g (or 200g rye + 200g wheat flour)
Fermentation time:60-90 min
Fermentation temperature:30°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 260°C, then 50 min at 200°C
Example is the 100% rye bread which I baked for this post, watch video above.
or here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Mq5MjhAdU
Example of 100% rye using direct dough fermentation, without predough:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqn-KudvVD4
There are two ways - with pre-dough and without.
Pre-dough method
Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) => pre-dough => dough
Recipe for 1k of flour
Pre-dough
CLAS: 145g (50g flour, 95ml water)
Water: 500ml T 33-35°C
Rye flour: 550g
Yeast: 6g fresh or 2g dry
Fermentation time:3h
Fermentation temperature:29°C
Dough
Water: 50-70ml
Salt: 15-20g
Wheat flour: 400g (or 100g rye + 300g wheat flour)
Fermentation time:60-90 min
Fermentation temperature:30°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 250°C, then 45 min at 200°C
Direct method (without pre-dough)
Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) =>dough
Recipe for 1k of flour
Dough
CLAS: 290g (100g flour, 190ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 430-460ml
Yeast: 6-7g fresh or 2-2.5g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 500g
Wheat flour: 400g
Fermentation time:2,5-3 h
Fermentation temperature:30-32°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 250°C, then 45 min at 200°C
Example is here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TONlkFJ5nw8
Recipe for 1k of flour
Dough
CLAS: 203g (70g flour, 133ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 470-500ml
Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 230g
Wheat flour: 700g
Fermentation time:1,5 h
Fermentation temperature:30-32°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 30 min at 250°C, with steam
Example:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0APmmZ-MtWQ
Recipe for 1k of flour
Dough
CLAS: 87-145g (30-50g flour, 57-95 ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 550ml
Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Wheat flour: 950-970g
Fermentation time:1,5 h
Fermentation temperature:30-33°C
Final proof: 45 min at 32°C
Baking: 30 min at 230°C, with steam
For all-purpose wheat flour 3% of the total flour amount is added with CLAS
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lA7zJxiPEw
For high-gluten wheat flour (T80) 5% of the total flour amount is added with CLAS
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpNqhC5s_Ck
For first clean wheat flour (T110), also only 5% of flour is added with CLAS
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVRM0cWmkGc
Fresh yeast amount for wheat breads is 2% from the total flour amount. Dry yeast should be added 3 times less as fresh yeast.
Wholemeal wheat bread requires a special technique, explained in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viryDYWyya4
one more video, showing how to deal with CLAS end wholemeal wheat (this time spelt) flour:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01jVJU2OX4I
For all guidelines you should consider temperature and time guidelines not only for CLAS, but at any stage, otherwise you will fail!
I bake only using CLAS last time, this play list on my YouTube channel contains CLAS breads recipes from me:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrSg5cYpPtU96v2LWR9rETxWDEHe3iIcj
I'm looking forward to translate them into English soon.
This playlist contains all translated recipes from me, recipes with CLAS are marked (CLAS)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrSg5cYpPtU_NKto2xtoRpVtRsVs7kJq0
Post in Russian is here:
https://brotgost.blogspot.com/2017/08/iii.html
Rye-wheat breads, containing 50-75% of rye flour
These breads will be baked using refreshed CLAS, not CLAS from fridge.There are two ways - with pre-dough and without.
Pre-dough method
Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) => pre-dough => dough
Recipe for 1k of flour
Pre-dough
CLAS: 145g (50g flour, 95ml water)
Water: 500ml T 33-35°C
Rye flour: 550g
Yeast: 6g fresh or 2g dry
Fermentation time:3h
Fermentation temperature:29°C
Dough
Water: 50-70ml
Salt: 15-20g
Wheat flour: 400g (or 100g rye + 300g wheat flour)
Fermentation time:60-90 min
Fermentation temperature:30°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 250°C, then 45 min at 200°C
Direct method (without pre-dough)
Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) =>dough
Recipe for 1k of flour
Dough
CLAS: 290g (100g flour, 190ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 430-460ml
Yeast: 6-7g fresh or 2-2.5g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 500g
Wheat flour: 400g
Fermentation time:2,5-3 h
Fermentation temperature:30-32°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 250°C, then 45 min at 200°C
Example is here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TONlkFJ5nw8
Wheat-rye bread, containing 30-40% of rye flour
This breads can be baked using CLAS from fridge without refreshment. CLAS should be just warmed up.Recipe for 1k of flour
Dough
CLAS: 203g (70g flour, 133ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 470-500ml
Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 230g
Wheat flour: 700g
Fermentation time:1,5 h
Fermentation temperature:30-32°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 30 min at 250°C, with steam
Example:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0APmmZ-MtWQ
Wheat bread,all-purpose flour or high gluten
This breads can be baked using CLAS from fridge, without refreshment. CLAS should be just warmed up.Recipe for 1k of flour
Dough
CLAS: 87-145g (30-50g flour, 57-95 ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 550ml
Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Wheat flour: 950-970g
Fermentation time:1,5 h
Fermentation temperature:30-33°C
Final proof: 45 min at 32°C
Baking: 30 min at 230°C, with steam
For all-purpose wheat flour 3% of the total flour amount is added with CLAS
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lA7zJxiPEw
For high-gluten wheat flour (T80) 5% of the total flour amount is added with CLAS
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpNqhC5s_Ck
For first clean wheat flour (T110), also only 5% of flour is added with CLAS
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVRM0cWmkGc
Fresh yeast amount for wheat breads is 2% from the total flour amount. Dry yeast should be added 3 times less as fresh yeast.
Wholemeal wheat bread requires a special technique, explained in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viryDYWyya4
one more video, showing how to deal with CLAS end wholemeal wheat (this time spelt) flour:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01jVJU2OX4I
Latvian and Russian breads with scald that require an "old" dough for fermentation
There are many breads with scald, that require an "old" dough for fermentation. For example:
Salinātā rudzu rupjmaize:
or Riga bread
The main problem with direct replacement is, that the whole water for baking should be added to the scald. and adding CLAS directly is impossible due to the fact that the dough hydration will exceed its limit. CLAS has much higher hydration as "old" dough - 190% vs. 65-70%.
No problem, using CLAS we can make an "old" dough:
"Old" dough with hydration 70% from medium-, dark- or wholemeal rye flour
CLAS 15% of flour from total flour amount in the "old" dough
recipe for 170g/100g of the "old" dough
CLAS 43,5/26,1 g
flour 85/51,0 g
water 41,5/24,9 ml
salt 2/1,2 g
fresh yeast 0,6/0,4 g
15 hours
27-28 °C
CLAS - 10% of flour from the total flour amount in the "old" dough
recipe for 170g/100g of the "old" dough
CLAS 29/17,4
flour 90/54
water 51/30,6
salt 2/1,2
yeast 0,6/0,4
18-24 hours
27-28 °C
"Old" dough with hydration 65% from light rye flour
CLAS - 10% of flour from the total flour amount in the "old" dough
recipe for 170g/100g of the "old" dough
CLAS 29/17,4
medium rye flour 90/54
water 46/27,6
salt 2/1,2
fresh yeast 0,6/0,4
12-15 hours
27-28 °C
Due to the long fermentation time, CLAS can be taken directly from fridge and should not be refreshed. You just need to pre-warm it to be able to setup an initial temperature of the "old" dough.
For all guidelines you should consider temperature and time guidelines not only for CLAS, but at any stage, otherwise you will fail!
Some other guidelines
CLAS starter is always refreshed using whole grain rye flour (at least dark rye flour) independent from which bread you are going to bake.
Starting from second or third refreshment, CLAS could rise in size. It happens not because of yeast activity, but because some lactic acid bacteria are heterofermentative, that means they are able to produce CO2.
 |
| Doubling size after 6h of fermentation |
It happens in 80% of cases.
Advantages of using CLAS
- Easy to get, just in 24h
- Bread quality is usually better as with traditional sourdough and close to the professional ones
- Wheat and wheat-rye breads can be baked within 3.5 hours, using CLAS from fridge, and have a quality of high-end breads made with pre-dough or long fermentation methods
- Self-preservation makes it possible to keep CLAS for 48h at room temperature
I bake only using CLAS last time, this play list on my YouTube channel contains CLAS breads recipes from me:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrSg5cYpPtU96v2LWR9rETxWDEHe3iIcj
I'm looking forward to translate them into English soon.
This playlist contains all translated recipes from me, recipes with CLAS are marked (CLAS)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrSg5cYpPtU_NKto2xtoRpVtRsVs7kJq0
Post in Russian is here:
https://brotgost.blogspot.com/2017/08/iii.html
Thank you so much for sharing, Rus!
ОтветитьУдалитьHi, Rus!
УдалитьHow are you doing? I hope you're doing well.
I'm planning to make an unleavened flatbread. I am curious if I use CLAS in the dough and leave it in a warm environment (at 30C, for example) for several hours as I would when making a pre-dough (but without yeast this time), will the flavor of this flatbread improve even though there’s no yeast fermentation?
Also, why do we always use yeast when preparing the pre-dough of CLAS bread? Why don’t we add all the yeast in the final dough?
Thanks!
Yippee
Rus, Yippee shared your information with me and I must say I am intriqued. Do you foresee any problems using the CLAS in my final dough, but instead of using yeast, using sourdough levain instead?
ОтветитьУдалитьThanks for sharing...
Dan Ayo
USA
Hi Dan!
УдалитьIn order to bake bread the dough should be "infected" with lactic acid bacteria and yeast cells.
Depending on the bread type, proportion between them is different. For rye bread more lactic acid bacteria cells is required and for wheat bread more yeast cells.
Using CLAS it is easy to get a proper proportion, since we can easy control the number of cells.
Traditional sourdough contains cells of both types in the random proportion. If you would add traditional sourdough along with CLAS, the dough will have too less yeast cells and too much lactic acid bacteria, as result insufficient lifting power and sour taste.
Of course, technically it is possible to bake with CLAS and without bakers yeast. For that you just need to get a collection of the yeast cells, free of lactic acid bacteria. Very common way for that is hops yeast, which uses the fact, that hop kills lactic acid bacteria
Usually you will need about 36h to get hops yeast:
http://brotgost.blogspot.com/2016/04/hmelzakwaska.html
Then it is possible to mix them with CLAS, but the question is what for? Since traditional sourdough already contains a mixture of both.
The main advantage of the CLAS is ability to control acidity and lifting power of the dough in very simple way. For doing that with traditional sourdough you need to apply, sometimes very complicated refreshment schemes, or also add bakers yeast.
May I ask a question why do you hate bakers yeast?
Maybe bear yeast of wild strains would be an option?
Interesting observation: I normally refresh my CLAS using freshly milled whole rye flour, and the pH after refreshment is 3.57-3.63. Today I used whole rye that I ordered online, and the pH was 3.84 after refreshment. I refreshed it the exact same way, same temperature and time.
ОтветитьУдалитьHi!
УдалитьUsually, under the same conditions and using the same bacteria strains, pH will depend only on ash content (mineralization) of flour.
For some reason flour from store in your case had different ash content, may be due to the cleaning was made, who knows.
Once I've tried CLAS with crushed rye grain, it had the same pH as CLAS from wholemeal rye flour from store. But flour in Germany is very strictly standardized and wholemeal means really wholemeal. Different countries have different flour standards or even lack of standards at all.
Этот комментарий был удален автором.
ОтветитьУдалитьGreat blog Rus. Thank you!
ОтветитьУдалитьWhat is your opinion on using crystal rye malt for this process? I know you've explained it's not red rye malt but is it the correct kind for making CLAS?
I'm currently on the second step, used crystal rye malt and it seems to have gone well.
Don't have yeast as I mainly bake with sourdough starter. However I do have raisin yeast water I plan on using. Raisin yeast water is mainly yeast without the lactic acid bacteria so it should be a nice pairing with CLAS which is lactic acid bacteria without the yeast. Do you have a nice whole spelt recipe using CLAS?
In one of your videos you combine CLAS with some baker's yeast to make a sourdough starter. After this bake I plan on mixing together a raisin yeast water starter + CLAS to make a new sourdough starter. Thought it might be interesting to see how different it'll be to my traditional starter but unlike combining CLAS + bakers yeast it'll still be 100% wild yeast.
Hi Abe!
УдалитьIn order to make CLAS you need diastatic rye malt, not red rye malt and not crystal rye malt.
Crystal rye malt was dried at high temperature and all bacteria on its surface are dead. It is also has no diastatic activity any more. Highly likely yo've got CLAS from flours bacteria only.
Spelt bread on my channel:
https://youtu.be/01jVJU2OX4I
Not sure how are you going to replace baker yeast with raisin yeast? I think you will fail with proportion and timing, which will lead to poor quality result.
The main idea of CLAS is separation of LAB and yeast, which gives you a full control of lifting power and sourness of dough. ClAS is supposed to be mixed with yeast for each baking. Of cource you can make your custom starter using CLAS as LAB source and take your raisins yeast as source of yeast. The only thing is that such a starter you will need to feed at 28C, no less. LAB from CLAS do not work well at lower temperature. Anyway in my opinion it makes no sense! CLAS should be used with commercial yeast, only then you have a full advantage of CLAS. If you do not like, for some reasons, commercial yeast, traditional sourdough is the only option for you.
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УдалитьThank you Rus,
УдалитьI'm hoping that the CLAS has worked which has turned out to be just with rye flour and no malt. Using my raisin yeast water was just an idea as I don't normally have yeast as for a long time now I've only used natural yeast. So while I attempt a bake using this CLAS and yeast water I'm going to buy some diastatic malt and some fresh bakers yeast and try again! I don't object to bakers yeast. That looks like a wonderful recipe. Thank you.
Этот комментарий был удален автором.
ОтветитьУдалитьThank you! We are going to experiment with using an 'Instant Pot' for making CLAS, then follow your instructions for making ржаной солод. I fell in love with Russian bread during a trip to Moscow, and it is virtually unknown in Idaho. You are my only hope for once again having the joys of Russian bread!
ОтветитьУдалитьYou are welcome and good luck with trying out Russian recipes!
УдалитьАндрей, здравствуйте!
ОтветитьУдалитьНедавно начал углубляться в выпечку ржаного хлеба и открыл для себя Ваш ресурс.
Хочу выразить огромное уважение и благодарность за то что вы сделали и продолжаете делать!
Я до сих пор работал со 100% и с густой ржаной закваской, благодаря Вам решил вывести КМКЗ.Использовал свежемолотую ржаную муку и белый ячменный солод.
Первая попытка не удалась. Через 24 часа ph метер показал 3.55. Но какого-то определенного аромата или вкуса не ощутил. Освежил 1:9. Через 12 часов картина не изменилась за исключением цвета - закваска посветлела, приобрела бежевый оттенок. Решил освежить еще раз. Через 12 часов появился неприятный запах. ph по прежнему 3.5-3.6.
Единственное , что пошло не так, температура временами подымалась до 45-46гр.
Начал сначала. На этот раз температуру удалось выдержать в пределах 39-42 градуса. Через 24 часа ph метер показал 3.6. Выраженного запаха и аромата пока нет.
Что Вы порекомендуете на этом этапе? Оставить еще на какое-то время? Освежить? Может в другой пропорции?
Заранее благодарю!
С уважением ,
Стас
Здравствуйте Стас!
УдалитьЕсли pH метр показывает 3.5-3.6, что очень кисло и для КМКЗ нормально, но на вкус КМКЗ не кислая, не пахнет кислотой, а пахнет мукой, то надо откалибровать или заменить pH метр.
Освежать первую фазу не имеет смысла, если она не закисла.
Через 16 и затем 24 часа надо перемешать и за 28-30 часов должно уже закиснуть до pH 4-4.2. Далее можно освежать.
Если первая фаза не киснет, то сменить солод на ржаной или сменить муку или добавить дробленого ржаного зерна.
Андрей, здравствуйте!
ОтветитьУдалитьБлагодарю за быстрый отклик.
Прибор вот такой:
https://aperainst.com/ph60s-premium-spear-ph-meter-pocket-tester-for-solid-semi-solid-sample-ph-measurement-cheese-meat-sushi-rice-soil-canning
Откалибровал еще раз. Калибровочные растворы показывал точно и до повторной калибровки.
Я наверное не точно описал. На вкус очень кислая, но вот запаха алычи не ощущаю.
Вот так выглядит через 36 часов (до и после перемешивания).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_8I9ylhyARFErno7Fx9U9qG8hsVNrwoF/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_BsLlPCkclkK4d7W0SyxEr01IqdLxNT2/view?usp=sharing
С уважением ,
Стас
Если на вкус кислая, то надо печь, а не внюхиваться. Восприятие аромата есть дело индивидуальное. Моя, на мой вкус, скорее пахнет капустным рассолом.
УдалитьОбщая информация о КМКЗ, чем пахнет и много комментариев на эту тему тут:
https://brotgost.blogspot.com/2017/08/iii.html
А эта статья англоязычный перевод для иностранных колег.
Приветствую!
ОтветитьУдалитьОгромное спасибо за помощь!
Материалы по КМКЗ на Вашем сайте проштудировал и продолжаю перечитывать , включая комментарии. Видимо случайно написал в комментарии не к той статье. Прошу прощения.
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ОтветитьУдалитьHi, Rus!
ОтветитьУдалитьHow are you doing? I hope you're doing well.
I'm planning to make an unleavened flatbread. I am curious if I use CLAS in the dough and leave it in a warm environment (at 30C, for example) for several hours as I would when making a pre-dough (but without yeast this time), will the flavor of this flatbread improve even though there’s no yeast fermentation?
Also, why do we always use yeast when preparing the pre-dough of CLAS bread? Why don’t we add all the yeast in the final dough?
Thanks!
Hi, Rus!
ОтветитьУдалитьHow are you doing? I hope you're doing well.
I'm planning to make an unleavened flatbread. I am curious if I use CLAS in the dough and leave it in a warm environment (at 30C, for example) for several hours as I would when making a pre-dough (but without yeast this time), will the flavor of this flatbread improve even though there’s no yeast fermentation?
Also, why do we always use yeast when preparing the pre-dough of CLAS bread? Why don’t we add all the yeast in the final dough?
Thanks!
Hi Yippee!
УдалитьI'm Ok, thank you!
1. I suppose, you mean yeast-less flatbread. Something like flour, water and salt are mixed together and baked probably after 10-20 mins.
I'm asking beacause in Russia flatbread could be with yeast as well. Ok, will be flavor of the yeast-less flatbread improved, if you add some acidic components in form of CLAS into the dough? I do not know! Never tried.
What I know, that most famous yeast-less flatbread in Russia is lavash. According to some authentic methods, the dough is prepared with a little bit of the "old" dough from the previos fermentation. The dough itself is being fermented just for 20 min only, but the "old" dough should lay for 2-3 days to be used again. It's a kind of acidic component. Also the flatbread from supermarket here has a strong acidic flavor. Probably for a long shelf life.
2. Any bread, even 100% rye can be baked without predough. CLAS + yeast are added directly into the dough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqn-KudvVD4
Why predough is usually made with yeast and not without? Just because LAB without yeast are very slow at 28-30C. Probably 10 times slower as in combination with yeast. Yeast and LAB stimulate each over, that makes a combination very fast!
Nevertheless there are some interesting methods there the CLAS is being fermentet at 27-30C. Not as a predought, but as sourdough. Only LAB without yeast at the "normal" temperatures. Most famous method is German one and it is caled "Brot fermentation", English - bread fermentation. It has 2 steps:
1. Activating LAB
2. Mixing activated LAB with flour, water and "old" bread. The "old" bread is 50%. Fermenting this stuff at 28C for 48h. End-pH is about 3.5. This sourdough is used similar to CLAS. Advantages: utilization of the bread leftovers in the bakeries. Disadvantage: always used with new clean LAB strains, since wild yeast will start to grow at 28C soon or later. Check here on my succes of repeating this technology at home conditions:
http://brotgost.blogspot.com/2017/11/hfem.html
Be aware that it has nothing to do with artisan baking and so on, it is a modern way of baking breads in the German bakeries!
I was inspired by this technic and did a lot of experiments with "cold" CLAS fermentation without yeast:
http://brotgost.blogspot.com/2018/10/blog-post.html
https://brotgost.blogspot.com/2018/02/gustayaKMKZ.html
But in all this experiments the end-product is CLAS, not predough. I think, the problem with pre-dough without yeast will be acidity controll. You will not know wtat is the current pH. CLAS is being fermented till max pH reached. Predough with CLAS and yeast is being fermented using timer with more or less same end-pH. But with CLAS only and 28C nobody knows in how many hours pH will be as tequred for pre-dough. Something like that.
Can you freeze clas?
ОтветитьУдалитьAccording to the blog readers - yes you can. I have never tried and cannot tell how it effects folowing backes. For me it makes no sense, since you can setup a new one from scratch in 24h.
Удалитьfreezing is very helpful!! I saw no bad effects in wheat breads. I can make 10 portions of clas/kmkz and freeze them in 120 gr portions (8.5% flour from clas for 500gr total flour loaf). When I bake, I just take it out and thaw it.
УдалитьVery interesting. In Germany you can buy inactivated CLAS in the supermarket. Works fine for occasional backing of the weat bread. Works even for rye-wheat, but amout should be increased compared to the alive CLAS. And works very bad for high-rye.
УдалитьIf you write 8.5% for wheat, you do not mean high extraction wheat flour, right? 8.5% will be overkill for all-purpose flour :-)
Actually I never thought about freezing in this way, probably because I've baked mostly every week and primary rye bread. Currently I bake monthly and use drying for preservation.
Andrei, thank you for sharing the CLAS methodology! I’m curious, when you write a quantity in units “[degrees] S” as being an equivalent of a certain pH value, does that refer to titratable acidity in Soxhlet-Henkel units? Or is it some other system of units?
Удалить— Avery
Hi Avery! You are welcome.
УдалитьI definitely mean here titratable acidity. In Russian literature it is called "Neumann degree of acidity °H. In Germany Säuregrad °S. I suppose it is different as Soxhlet-Henkel units. Sometimes I write unnecessary technical information, which has no value for hobby usage :-)
Hello!
ОтветитьУдалитьThank you for this helpful information!
Is is possible to establish CLAS using high extraction wheat flour instead of rye flour? Do you think there would be sufficient micro-flora to generate the lactic acid?
Thank you
Hi! I think the problem will be not the lack of micro-flora, but poor mineralization of high-extraction flour (micro-flora can be still infected with malt).
УдалитьNevertheless russian bread-factories feeding CLAS using the same flour as used in bread, so for high-extraction flour they use high-extraction flour CLAS. But they setup CLAS using labor cultures. For home usage quite senseless in my opinion. With 3% CLAS from the whole flour amount it makes no visible difference.
If you want you can give a try. Make first CLAS from wholewheat flour and then feed it using high-extraction. But you need to go for 120% hydration and refresh rate 1:2-1:3, for the same time. Temperature should also be a little lower: 37-40C. That definitely works, but I have no idea how well in long-terms.
Thank you. I must experiment and see what happens.
УдалитьIs there a reason for the lower hydration and lower temperature for the high extraction refresh?
Would diastatic Malt powder or non-diastatic liquid Malt syrup (from barley) be of any assistance to the process?
Hi! Lower hydration prevents a water/flour separation during fermenration of high-extraction flour. Why the slightly lower temperature is suggested, I cannot tell, I just follow what is writen in the books in this case.
УдалитьDiastatic malt powder defenetelly helps with CLAS. I always replace 10% of flour in CLAS with it, then refreshing. This helps with acidity and preserves CLAS quality in long terms. About Liquid malt sirup I have no idea, never tried with CLAS.
Just a question, why do you want to feed CLAS with high extraction flour?
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УдалитьSorry, just checked the book again, hydration must be 140%, not 120% for high-extraction flour. And temperature is even defined as 34-38C
УдалитьThank you for the clarification that is most helpful! I look forward to trying this to see the results.
ОтветитьУдалитьI want to use high extraction flour because the products I make mostly use high extraction flour. I have noticed that even with small amount of rye flour CLAS at 3% it does impact the colour and texture of the product. Maybe it is because my rye malt and flour are too course, I am not sure, but if I could use high extraction flour CLAS that might work best.
I would also like to see if I can use CLAS to create a similar affect as lieveto madre for panettone production. I think this would require the CLAS innoculate a stiff starter as I believe this is required to produce dextrans which give panettone it softness. I have seen your panettone video and quality appears excellent but would like to see if it works as well on much more enriched panettone formula.
Thanks - Superb blog!
ОтветитьУдалитьHello,
ОтветитьУдалитьI am a hobby student baker in Korea. I was wondering if one can use CLAS directly from the fridge(if within a week of the last refreshment) for rye breads or if it should be refreshed before baking.
Hope you have a lovely day!
Hello! For the rye bread is better to refresh, unless you go for a long pre-fefment like shown here:
Удалитьhttps://youtu.be/TTQK9H5Sl28?si=aMl0Lhtx1l0vsrCW
In this case clas can be used from fridge.
Hi Andrey,
ОтветитьУдалитьThank you for taking my question. And for all of the work you've shared with us about using CLAS! It has changed how I bake for the better!
I have great success using CLAS with all types of whole grain breads. But I have inconsistent results when making simple white breads (flour, water, yeast, salt, butter, CLAS). Most often they come out very flat-tasting. A couple times I've gotten good results with the nice, complex flavors that we associate with sourdough-type breads (which is what I want). But I could not duplicate it.
I have learned that, with CLAS, a longer preferment does not usually result in a better taste! This is contrary to what normally happens without it. There seems to be a complex relationship between the amount of CLAS, the amount of yeast, and the temperature and duration of the preferment. Too much or too little of any of them, and the taste is ruined.
Can you give some guidance on how to consistently create a more flavorful white-flour-bread result? In particular, I'm interested in overnight (9 hours) preferments. It would be very convenient for my schedule.
I have two types of white flour; the usual "unbleached all-purpose" at 10% protein, and a locally-milled one with 11.5% protein.
Thanks again for your consideration!
Hello Precaud.
УдалитьI'm glad to hear that you have a success with whole grain breads. I will try to explain how it works with high extraction flour.
1. Amount
First of all CLAS is quick method, especially for high extraction flour. Amount of CLAS, yeast, temperature and time are very strict. There is no play room. Too much CLAS = bad result, too less yeast = bad result, less yeast and longer fermentation = bad result.
That is why it is important to follow guidelines.
For flour T55:
3% of flour is added with CLAS
For flour T65, T80:
5% of flour is added with CLAS
The freash yeast always 2-2.5% from the total flour amount
Fermentation 1,5h at 30C, folding and 6-7 min rest, shaping and final proof at 32C about 40 min.
I'm specially referencing to the French flour types, because in Nord America, as I know, nobody can be sure what the ash content of the flour is. But the CLAS amount depends on the ash content.
Also many people misunderstanding amount of sourdough must be added. It is added always as flour amount in the sourdough without liquid. 3% means that CLAS should contain 3% of the flour from the total flour amount. For 100g flour in the dough it is 3+3*1.9= 8.7g of CLAS and remaining flour is 97g. Should you feed the CLAS using different hydration, the amount should be adjusted.
Dry yeast amount better to take with factor 2,5. It means for each 100g flour in the dough take 0.8g of dry yeast. Add dry yeast directly into the flour.
2. Fermentation Temperature and fermentation time extending
The dough for Russian wheat bread is fermented at 30-32C
The French bread at 25C or Italian even at 5C
The amount of CLAS is not changed, only fermentation time and amount of yeast.
You can check baguette recipe with CLAS here:
https://youtu.be/72eqroFfxCI
It has exactly same taste and flavor as from bakery, but 24h less fermentation time. Confirmed by many subscribers many times. The flavor is absolutely different as by fermentation at 30C.
I personally dislike cold fermentation because of "rubber" crumb, but where some examples on my channel too.
3. Regional preferences
One subscriber has told me that in Australia even bread from high extraction flour is sour and consumers like that. Ok, sour bread from high extraction flour is a defect bread in the Europe. I have no idea how to make it, since for me and my main audience it will not be eatable.
The subject is quite complex to answer shortly, but I hope I could help.
Thank you Andrey, that helps a lot. I will forget about long preferments for now, and stay within the guidelines you describe. Or, I will leave CLAS out of the long preferment, and add it at the knead.
ОтветитьУдалитьI don't know if it is completely accurate, but I use this page to translate between the various flour classification systems:
https://www.theartisan.net/flour_ash_content.htm
Missing from the charts is the protein content, which is what most American millers give.
It seems the relation between "extraction rate" and "protein %" is not precise. By their description, both of the flours I use are T55 types. One is sold as "all-purpose", the other as "intermediate bread flour".
Thanks again! Your 'tech support' is excellent, better than most businesses! :)
I should probably mention one of the factors adding uncertainty to my results. I live and bake at 7,000 ft altitude. I can never use a sea-level recipe as it is given. I ALWAYS have to use less yeast than sea-level recipes, typically 40-50% less! And usually increase water slightly.
ОтветитьУдалитьThe most important thing with CLAS and high extraction flour is to add as much yeast, that the dough gets a good yeast activity. That means full rise within 90 minutes at 30-32C or 2h 15 minutes at 25C. I mean the main dough rise, not the final proof.
УдалитьThe fresh yeast results with stable and constant time independent from the vendor. Unfortunately with dry yeast it is not like that.
The only case I had to make a preferment with CLAS was sweet butter dough for panettone. But it is was very quick preferment.
In normal case no preferment is required.
Good luck!
OK, I see now. Yesterday I made a small loafpan version of Булочки на КМКЗ using 1/2 recommended yeast (for altitude), no sugar, and 30 min autolyse (flour and water only). The result was excellent in every respect! So I'll stay within the parameters, and enjoy the results. Thanks again for your help!
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